Interview with Dr Musharraf Hussain and Harun Yahya, September 2009
Harum Yahya: Author of the Evolution Deceit,calling in from Turkey. NB: As Harum does not speak English, his words were translated by a colleague of his, Brother Oktar)
Dr Musharraf Hussein Al-Azhari: twelve years bio-chemical researcher and fifteen years director here at the Karimia Institute and the Imam of the Mosque.
BFTF : Br Yahya, could you please give some background about the books you have been writing and also about the science and research foundation that you have has set up to accomplish all this.
Harun Yahya : I have written three hundred books which have been translated into more than sixty languages. There are a group of thirty people who help me out, there are associate professors and professors in this group, and what they do is they gather the information from different languages, for example English, German and they bring up the pictures and translate the quotes and bring them and I interpret them and in that way I write my books. This year 80 million of my books were sold around the world and 80 million books were downloaded from my website, so inshallah, every time it goes up and more and more and it’s progressing
BFTF: You are perhaps most famous for your work on evolution and the world around us really, so if I could just set the scene for you. When we look around us we have this magnificent, truly awe-inspiring planet around us, these millions, countless, literally countless species and different types of plants and animals, birds, sea creatures, small insects and so on, and I just wanted to understand really what your perspective was on how this had come about, you know have all these creatures always been here? Have some come and have some gone?
Harun Yahya: Well Allah created it at the beginning, and Allah created it through time. Allah created at the beginning some parts of the living creatures, and then another part, and at the end Allah created humans and we know that from the fossil evidence. Fossils tell us... there are 200 million fossils, up to 300 million fossils today and they show there is no change at the beginning, and from a million years ago species and the species living now there is no change at all, and that proves creation by Allah. They don’t change from the very beginning and they stay the same throughout their tenure on the Earth. So we don’t need any other evidence, this evidence tells us exactly, very evidently that Allah created all the living beings and there is no evolution. If there was evolution, if evolution was a fact there would be some change, however there is no change, and 200 million fossils tells us that Allah created all the living beings.
BFTF: OK, so just to take an example of a cat. So is your position that’s always been here? How did that cat come to be is what I’m trying to understand really, just to get an understanding of your position really.
Harun Yahya: Well for example if you look at the cat fossils we see for millions of years cats never change, they appear in the history all at once, and they never change for millions of years. It is the same for lions for example, it is the same for tigers, for 60 or 70 million years, we have fossils that are 60 or 70 million years old that are exactly the same, there is no change at all. If you check for example the cranium of these animals it is the same as today, the teeth are the same as today, there is no change at all. This is Allah’s artistry, Allah created them and it is Allah’s miracle that Allah also created these fossils which tell us there is no change at all.
BFTF: Doctor Musharraf if you could come in there with your training as a bio-chemist and also from your experience from Al-Azhar University, how does that read to you really?
Dr Hussein: Well what I would like to understand from Brother Harun is where does he get this notion from. The palaeontology and the science of fossils obviously shows very clearly that there has been evolution, that things have actually changed, I mean that is the reality, fossils are very clear proof of how things have actually changed. I think what I’m trying to understand is where does he get his idea that things haven’t changed because the palaeontology and the science of fossils shows very clearly that there has been an evolution, and I’m not talking about evolution in the terms of the atheist’s concept that there is no hidden hand of God behind it, that it is a blind, by chance transformation and change, I’m thinking as a believer in God, as the “Rubb-ul Al-Ameen”, one of the names of Allah is “Rubb”, and if you look at the translation of the word “Rubb”, it is very clearly always mentioned by the Mufassarin (Interpreters of the Quran) as ‘the one who takes things from an imperfect state into the state of perfection’, in other words the translation is ‘evolver’, God is the ‘evolver’, the one who takes things through stages and develops them until they reach the state of perfection.
Harun Yahya: Well in palaeontology the required transitional forms were never found, I’ll give personally anybody who brings even one single transitional form seven million dollars, which is ten trillion Turkish lira, seven million dollars, if you have a single transitional form I will pay seven million dollars to you
BFTF: I’ve read this on the website and I just wanted to understand, could you give me an example of a transitional form that would qualify for the award, just so we can understand what you mean by that exactly, what do you mean by ‘transitional form’?
Harun Yahya: Well we never see transitional forms. For example Darwin’s claim of the evolution of the cat and tigers, they can never show a transitional form. Transitional forms are creatures which are mutated and pathological and a-symmetrical abnormal creatures, and we have never seen pathological forms of the transitional forms which show the transition from water to land for example, and I will give this amount of money to anybody who brings that.
Harun Yahya: Darwinists cannot bring even a single transitional form because I will pay this amount of money so also, the impossibility of the emergence of proteins by chance, that also refutes the Darwinists claims, not even proteins alone but even single acids could not have been formed by coincidence. Darwin himself tells us, in fact I can read a quote right now from his book ‘On the Origin of Species’ that there are no transitional forms. In Darwin’s time they were digging all around the world, all the layers of the Earth, and they found many fossils but they never found transitional forms.”
Dr Hussein: Well Brother, can I just stop you here, I think really the latest scientific findings, for example last week there was a major conference of palaeontologists here in Bristol University, where a Chinese expert actually had discovered what is a really remarkable fossil which looks like something which is between the birds and the dinosaurs, and it was claimed by this scientist that this is the transitional form between the dinosaurs and the earliest kind of birds. I think to be honest this is a fantastically important science, and there is so much expertise out there and there are so many, literally thousands, of examples of transitional forms, but what I want to know from Brother Harun is how is this in any way against our faith in Allah being the creator and Allah being the originator? The Qur’an describes Allah as “Al-Kharliq” (the Creator) and also as “Al-Badi” (the Originator), these are some of the words that the Qur’an uses for the creativity of Allah. How does this go against this belief, you know to believe that Allah created different forms, they progressed, they evolved effectively, you know Allah is the evolver, so here we’re constantly talking about Allah as being the evolver, how does this go against this idea of creation, can you explain that?
|Xiantingia (China) - internediate fossil between dinosuaurs and birds|
Harun Yahya: There are angels and demons in the Qur’an as you know and they were not created through evolution. There are houris in heaven and demons were not created through evolution, and the houris of heaven were not created through evolution. There is no evidence for evolution in the Qur’an so what you are talking about, these birds, have been existing for many millions of years . . . there is nothing between dinosaurs and birds.
Dr Hussein: Well the evidence is there, but let me just ask you this question. We know that (in a verse of the Quran) Allah is talking to the angels and saying to them “I want to create my Khalifa (Vice-regent) on the earth”, OK. And this is very clear, Allah created mankind, my understanding of this, and of course again people can differ with this, is that Allah created mankind, that is Adam (AS) in his form as he is, as human beings, there is no doubt about that. That is my very clear understanding that Adam (AS) is not evolved from anything, he was created by Allah as Adam (AS), as human being, and dignified in a very special way, that is Allah’s special creation. But as far as other animals are concerned, particularly when we look at the orders and then the families of creation and then the species within them, what is it that stops us from accepting this notion when there is evidence out there to show that undoubtedly evolution has occurred? I just cannot see what is against our belief that Allah created Adam (AS) as human being, but within the animal and plant kingdom there has been evolution going on.
BFTF: When you look at all the different ways that dogs have been bred, and plants have been bred, isn’t that right in front of you over the last few hundred or thousand years, isn’t that evolution right there? When you look at a little Dachshund to a huge Great Dane, or you look at the different types of vegetables, or fruits, or even flowers that you can buy, and the pressure that’s been put on those by the plant breeders or the animal breeders, isn’t that evolution right there in front of you?
Harun Yahya: Well this is variation of these animals and plants, this is not evidence for evolution, and actually most of them have disappeared with time, so if you looked at the previous form you would be even more surprised, but this not evolution this is only variation, and variation is not evolution. . . Well of course you get surprised if you see different kinds of animals or plants, but that shows us the power of Allah, and the power of creation of Allah, these different kinds of animals and different kinds of flowers shows us only the power and artistry of Allah
BFTF: You’ve written quite widely about the environment and our duty as a khilafa (stewards), our stewardship really of the Earth, and I just wanted to know if you could give some background on that and really your perspectives on how we should look after the environment. I’m thinking about trees, the lungs of the world and the environment in general.
Harun Yahya: Well all these living things, the plants and animals and humans, are a reflection of the creation of Allah, so Muslims should be very meticulous to protect the environment and the sanctity of all these plants and forests and trees, and we should approach them with love. . . . The idea of evolution goes back to the time of the Pharoh, the ancient Sumerians and ancient Greece. So it is a pagan religion which goes many, many of thousands of years back. With the findings from palaeontology, genetics and all the scientific branches, we destroyed their claims of evolution, of Darwinism.
BFTF:. One thing we try to do hear at the Karimia centre, we aren’t quite there yet but we are along the way, is we try to use paper that is FSC certified, so the forests have been well managed and they aren’t chopping down, for example, rainforests with all the loss of flora and fauna that entails. I just wanted to know how you approach that, and what steps you take with the paper you use in the millions of books you are printing to make that that’s from a sustainable source really.
Harun Yahya: Well instead of staying as a tree, it is much better to transform to cause hidayat(guidance) for people these trees.
Harun Yahya: Right now again only 1% of the species are alive. So there are estimates, according to scientists, between 10 and 30 million species alive today, but this is only 1% of all the species, 99% became extinct. So if you had all the species living together you would be very surprised, but this in Allah’s power. Allah could create endless number of species however Allah only created the 10 or 30 million species alive today.
Harun Yahya: Now let me read a quote from Darwin’s book “The Origin of Species”, Darwin confesses in his book, Darwin said, this is Charles Darwin, “Why if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of species being, as we see them, well defined? But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the Earth?” So Charles Darwin himself says there is mathematical symmetry is perfect in living beings. He goes on; “Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.” This is from Charles Darwin’s “The Origin of Species” page 172, which means, Darwin himself says there are no transitional forms which collapses the theory of evolution because at the time of Darwin thousands of workers...
BFTF: If I could just jump in for a second, I’ve read I think 2 or 3 pages from your website and I’ve tried to check some of these references out and what I find quite often is that there is a part of a quote, and I’ll give you one example, it’s not the one you’re mentioning but for example, you’re website quotes Darwin as saying: “To suppose that I, with all its contrivances, could have been formed by natural selection seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree”. So clearly it looks there as though Darwin is saying that it’s absurd that I could form through evolution. But you leave it at that. What you don’t write is the rest of what Darwin wrote, which is to explain well actually this is how it could happen, and how small variations could add up, and it seems a little bit misleading when you just put part of the quote and then you don’t put the rest
Harun Yahya: The quote we just read about Darwin, about Darwin’s confessions, the lack of transitional forms destroys Darwinism right at the bottom, it destroys the very foundation. There are 200 million fossils without any transitional forms...
Dr Hussein: Can I just add to this that Darwin’s book “The Origin of Species” was written 150 years ago, it really is out of date, it’s of its own time. We’ve moved on 150 years, science has really moved on leaps and bounds since then, and we now are looking at genetics of things really. We’re looking at the level of genes, and we’re able to do genetic engineering these days. Now I think that young Muslim scientists who have studied biology and genetics and also know their Deen (faith), are really like many Christians and people of faith who believe in God as the designer, as Qur’an calls Allah the “Musawwir”, the fashioner, the one who is Al-Bari (the Evolver), these are some of the beautiful names of Allah. There is no contradiction between having that faith and understanding those qualities and attributes of Allah, and this idea that Allah is the strategic planner of the evolution.
BFTF: OK, well I’d just like to mention two points and then I’d like to ask you a question Doctor Musharraf. I’ve got an article here that points out that of twelve Pakistani biologists interviewed only one had rejected evolution, and also that in 2006 the Pakistani and Indonesian academies of sciences, and in many other Muslim countries I understand, have signed a statement urging parents and teachers to educate children about the origins and evolution of life on Earth. Now I can only see in that report that the science bodies, the government sponsored science bodies, in Muslim countries are doing. But the question I wanted to ask you Doctor Sab is, and evolution is a very good example of this really, what your feeling is about having a plurality of views, having access to different types of information and different viewpoints, what is your view point on that?
Dr Hussein: I think the fact that these two great nations, the Indonesian and Pakistani scientists have, and I’m sure many other scientists in other parts of the world will agree with them, that these views about how possibly things could have evolved, and in my view they don’t contradict my Imaan (faith) in Allah as being the one who is behind all this. Muslims who haven’t got a deep understanding of science have sadly just taken the creationist Christian’s view. There is a very big difference between the modern Muslim who believes in evolution, and the Christian creationists who didn’t have that true understanding But can I just end by saying it has been really wonderful talking to you Brother Harun, and really I admire the work that you’ve done, mashallah (what Allah wishes), and all those wonderful books that you’ve written on other subjects, this is one subject where I sort of disagree with your view on evolution because I think it is a very old Christian view rather than an enlightened Muslim scientists view and therefore I would challenge you on that.
Harun Yahya: We cannot talk about evolution because 200 million fossils disprove evolution, there are no transitional forms, they all prove the fact of creation by Allah all of a sudden because for millions of years they never change, so without transitional forms it is impossible to defend Darwinism, to defend evolution. So science tells us exactly the opposite, so it is not scientific to defend evolution without any evidence. 200 million fossils, 250 million fossils, it’s going up to 300 million right now, just disproves evolution and shows us the emergence of species all the time.
“Muslim students weigh in on evolution”
Article by Prof. ABDUL MAJID, Ass.Prof., Dep of Zoology, Postgraduate College, Mansehra, PAKISTAN
IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution
MuslimVoices article on Muslims views of Evolution
National Geographic : Evolution in Action
BBC Learning Zone : Evolution of the Eye
Image Source : Xiaotingia